Gather and ProLife/ProChoice debate

Oh, I was really lazy the last days/weeks, but trust me, I will update the blog now more often as at the end of the last year ;-) I wanna start this year with a "conversation" of Gather with a self-called hardline guy about ProLife vs. ProChoice. What is your opinion on that topic?

Pro-Life Dude wrote:

hypocrites

"for every life, for liberation!" ???

Your band doesn't really believe that crap. Your band is inclusive to animals but exclusive to unborn HUMAN life. Oh wait, that's right, slaughtering unborn human beings is morally justifiable because they are located in the wrong place - their mothers body, are not as developed as you, are more dependent on their mother than you. That's right they are "subhuman" because they get in the way of their parents sexual freedom and self-determination. Thats right, lets kill everyone who gets in our way. That is true compassion.

Oh... they are not "sentient." Either is an anesthesized farm animal but that doesn't give me the right to kill them.

I heard the garbage you spewed out of your mouth at Syracuse (Total Liberation). "For every life"...as long as you are not unborn. Do you believe it is moraly justifiable to support the killing of unborn farm animals for food? I still can't believe Ian allowed your joke "xvx" to play Total Liberation.

GATHER responds wrote:

let me guess, you're a middle class male, probably white, or at least "White", oh, and you're Christian, so that's what you're basing your "morality" from. Well fuck religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity. I will never let a Christian, who supports the destruction of other cultures in the name of "salvation" make me feel like a hypocrite. You heard the shit I "spewed" at TLF? Well maybe you should learn about things like classism, sexism, and privilege. You, a young privileged male, will never ever be in the situation that some less fortunate people might be in where a choice like this is a reality (I'm talking about poverty, where the baby could not be taken care of, and just suffer. I'm talking about when a baby becomes a punishment simply b/c it's "wrong" to have an abortion, and a baby should NEVER be a punishment.) 

And as far as being a hypocrite, you're an idiot. Veganism and abortions have nothing to do with each other. No one gets pregnant FOR THE PURPOSE of killing a baby, like animals in factory farms are bred for. Most girls who have abortions go through a lot of stress and hell, unlike meat/dairy eaters who put NO thought into their actions. And for those who don't let religion/society make them feel guilty about such choices, they also don't have abortions for the reasons people eat meat and kill animals. They aren't comparable.

Another thing, people AND ANIMALS have abortions. It's not some new thing that humyns invented out of their immoral ways. For example, there were Native American cultures that were nomadic, and it only made sense for womyn who go pregnant to eat certain herbs that would abort their pregnancy. This was done in order to make their culture work, and it did work for years, UNTIL fucking Christians/Catholics came along and slaughtered them (actual genocide as well as cultural genocide) and pressed their religion on every other existing culture. It wasn't until fucks like you came along and started preaching that it was "immoral" b/c some made up "god" said so that abortions were even considered something immoral at all. Would you say that animals that have abortions are "immoral"? No, it's a choice that beings make (or an instinct they have) when it isn't the right time for them to reproduce. It's the way nature controls itself, and it's a method people used when it was necessary (and can still use today, even though our living situations are different, due to this mono-culture that America has created.)

Obviously, I don't believe in the Bible, but since YOU do, why not get your shit straight? Read this:

"Abortion

We all know that this is one of the Christian Right's big issues. It's also a big issue within hc/punk. A lot of people in hc/punk are against abortion, but wouldn't they be surprised to find out that the Christian God approves of murdering infants, sometimes smashing them against rocks, sometimes ripping them directly from their mothers' bleeding wombs? Let's look at some verses:

Numbers 31:17 -- "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him."

Hosea 13:16 -- "Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."

Deuteronomy 2:34 -- "And we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed every city, men, women, and children; we left none remaining."

Deuteronomy 3:6 -- "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon the king of Heshbon, destroying every city, men, women, and children."

Psalms 137:9 -- "Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"

Isaiah 13:16 -- "Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and" their wives ravished (raped)."

All of these verses refer to what God's army gets to do to the enemy army once it's vanquished. They are not taken out of context. Look them up if you want, but the bottom line is that God approves of killing innocent children under certain circumstances, so Christians can't possibly argue that abortion is always wrong. For more on the subjective morality of Christianity, see the next section. "

Alright, I'm sorry that you feel this way about us, but I won't apologize for not being anti-choice, and for being pro-womyn. Fuck your "morality", fuck Christianity.

<3

xgeniex

Pro-life Dude wrote:

First, lets not change the subject here. Attacking my class, ethinicity, race, faith, ect. doesn't prove your point nor act as a good rational arguement.

Second, it is irrelevant what the "doctors" or mothers motive in killing her baby is. Killing is killing whether it is for food or because you don't want a baby. According to historians, Thomas Jefferson loved his slaves but that doesn't make slavery justifiable or morally right.

Thirldy, just because people have historically killed their unborn & born children doesn't make it morally right. People have used animals for food since the beginning of time but that doesn't make it right. I never heard of an animal performing an abortion on their offspring. Animals don't have a sense of right and wrong but humans do. Apparently your joke "xvx" band thinks it is wrong to exploit animals. Animals kill other animals. So does that mean it is moral for humans to kill animals? Fourthly, not only did God use rightous humans to kill BORN children whose parents were doing abominable things and not following God, he used humans to kill their parents too. This was God's wrath against evil people who rejected God and his commandments. If I was to follow your logic and conclusions then you are saying that it is morally justifiable to kill BORN children, and their parents for whatever reason because in the past this was what God commanded other rightous men to do. If that is the case would it be wrong for someone to kill you and your family, and your joke "xvx" band? Because your band doesn't embrace a consistent ethic you will never be welcomed in Upstate NY. I don't speak for everyone but I do speak for many. If someone ever books your band in Upstate NY you better bring an army of your "children" hating vegan friends. I am not threatening you with violence but we will not make it enjoyable to be in NY. All of my xvx friends are prolife and none are Christian. I am the only one. What do you do with that? You can't call their position a religious position. You lose!

Upstate NY Hardline

GATHER responds wrote:

Well, first off, you aren't hardline. The organization no longer exists by that name, and for you to be in the new one, you'd have to be Muslim.

Secondly, your made-up god and the book that claims to be his words are the ones that dont have a 'consistent ethic'. Just read the book, I have.

But those are beside the point. The point is that your morality doesn't mean shit because morality doesnt exist. Killing is not immoral. Killing has always been done, and always will be done. By humyns and other animals. It is wrong when it is unnecessary and when there are clearly other and less brutal options. But you should know that if you were really 'Hardline'. And your response about killing people after they are born, even if they are babies, being okay because it is in the bible is moot because WE DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE! It doesn't mean anything to us when you argue based on it.

And then you go and passive-aggressively threaten us, further contradicting your 'morality'. Saying that violence toward life is never justified and then saying that we need to defend ourselves from some 'non-violent' threat is just ludicrous. It is clear what you meant. Why else would we need an army?

I think your friends that dont call themselves Christian are still highly influenced by the false morality their parents probably instilled in them from day one, including all the misogynist, classist, and racist bullshit that comes along with it.

Fuck you and your anti-choice friends. Fuck you for threatening us. We'll see you in upstate NY soon!

Randy and vGatherv